Is the biggest joke I have ever heard of and have seen! Frank is nothing more then a man who goes to New Holland Horse Auctions every Monday and buys 20-30 horses for $10-$50 a piece then turns around and sells them on his auction every Wednesday for $150.00-$600.00 or more. It is funny because Frank IS NOT LEGALLY ALLOWED TO SHIP ANY HORSE TO SLAUGHTER! He does not have permits to do so nor does he work with any slaughter bound transporter who moves horses to Canada or Mexico boarders.
This situation makes me livid. You have people that can't give away legit horses - broke, sound, and from honest owners that just can't afford them anymore, yet you have the masses flocking to pay $600 a pop for sale barn horses.
Maybe I should be doing it. I could buy up a small herd of $10 horses and say they are going to slaughter. Since, you know, from my other post, that the KBs are taking all those skinny little things.
Camelot Horses to be euthanized YET Frank is asking US for OUR HARD EARNED MONEY to put theses horses down. I have a solution! It is called a point blank bullet to the head. I have many spares laying around. I wonder if they would like three of them!?
Also anyone who wants a good laugh at how fucking gullible people are, specially when it comes to "saving" a none "saveable" animal, please do read and enjoy!
http://www.facebook.com/CamelotHorseWeekly
Want to know the REAL truth about Frank and his fake "Kill Pen Auction"?
Please read the following:
Gentle Giants Draft Horse Rescue
Camelot IN OUR OPINION is a big scam. I'm NOT saying those involved in helping are aware of this, or are not doing what they feel is right. Please don't say we are "bashing" anyone. But if you examine the inner factual workings of a "Broker Lot", which is what Camelot really is, you will see in the grand scheme it actually hurts more horses than it helps.
Here's how Camelot works: Frank Carper owns the Camelot Auction. Every Monday he goes to New Holland and buys about 25-30 horses. Then he takes them home and consigns them to his Wednesday night Camelot Auction sale in NJ. He "bids" on the horse, which he actually owns, to the price he wants. Then he puts it on his "feed lot" and the rescue girls put pictures up screaming its going to go to slaughter. Since Frank is so great, you only have to pay $50 over what he "paid" for the horse.
So if Frank buys horse X at New Holland for $115, then runs it through his sale Wednesday and bids himself up to $375, and it gets posted online as being able to be "saved" for $50 more, that's a total of $425. So Frank just made $310 on that horse in three days. Multiply that by 25-30. Each week. That's a lot of money.
Any horses who don't get "saved" simply get re-sold back at New Holland. I know Frank from the auction circuit and Frank isn't a meat dealer, he has never held a contract with a slaughterhouse EVER and he hasn't even sold a horse to a meat dealer since Cavel closed in 2007. The whole thing is a money making scam, and the real tragedy is the well meaning homes who take these horses and then find them horribly misrepresented and have no place to go with them. A large group on the ABR chat board have been tracking how many are ending up at other auctions and on Craigslist.
I've turned away more Camelot "saves" that their new homes felt weren't as represented than I can count. I hate having to tell the homes that they made a conscious choice to buy a horse online sight unseen, and now they have to step to the plate and be the responsible owner. Get it trained, or get yourself training. Half of these homes I've talked to are beyond beginners who have no clue and shouldn't even be owning a horse yet, they should be volunteering or in a good lesson barn learning care and basic horsemanship. Many just end up dumping the horse because its not what they expected, and it doesn't take long for the thrill of "the save" to wear off when Flicka is kicking, biting, rearing or bucking.
So Frank is getting RICH, the horses were never even at risk, and lots of homes are getting guilted into "saving" over-priced horses who aren't at all suitable for their needs.
I just wish people would support reputable rescues and ADOPT a horse who has been evaluated, vetted, trained, and is guaranteed to be as described, rather than spend twice that amount and have a nightmare on their hands. If the rescues of the world had all these homes scooping up our trained, vetted, and evaluated horses, maybe we could go actually save some more.
Frank sits at New Holland and openly laughs and jokes about buying up the cheap horses for those "bleedin' heart rescue people", because they all need to be "saved". His favorite line is "I don't know if the horse needs savin', but my check book sure does!"
Please think about the long term effects of supporting Camelot's Broker Lot, and similar programs like the Moore Broker Lot in PA. Our well meaning rescue community is lining the pockets of nefarious horse dealers, who laugh all the way to bank on our hard earned money. Meanwhile, the real horses at risk suffer daily.
Please consider- Adopt from a reputable rescue who outbids in the sale ring, and doesn't pay a dealer a profit.
Go to an auction and buy a horse yourself in the same manner. Contact a local rescue, they will likely show you how if not even go with you.
Take a needy horse off of your local Craigslist, and keep it out of the auction ring altogether.
We won't spend a dime of our donors money making a horse dealer rich, and we hope you won't be manipulated to as well.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions, I will do my best to answer them all. Again, these are simply our opinions and observations of the darker inner workings of Broker Lots.
Christine Hajek, President and Founder
Gentle Giants Draft Horse Rescue
www.GentleGiantsDraftHorseRescue.com
443-285-3835
https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=181750578518450&topic=341
Camelot ... What Am I Missing? It looks like a bonus round profit center to me
UPDATE OCT 11, 2011
Amazing what happens when the TRUTH comes out. Lights fires under peoples asses, that's what!
https://www.facebook.com/notes/camelot-horse-weekly/euthanasia-announcement/273535549336129
EUTHANASIA ANNOUNCEMENT:
by Camelot Horse Weekly on Sunday, October 9, 2011 at 8:57pm
UPDATE 10/11 12:41pm:
REGARDING THE EUTHANSIA OF HORSES AT CAMELOT -Due to the controversy over these horses the decision has been made to refund all money and let Camelot decide how to destroy them. The previous owner of 657 and 658 will be asked to deal with Camelot directly. We thank those of you who have and continue to support us.
The fate of the horses is now OUT of the hands of HHER and CHW. We are hoping that the owners of 657 & 658 will be contacting Camelot directly to make arrangements for them.
For those of you who have been supportive of an impossible situation, please accept our sincere Thank You.
If you donated through paypal and did not get a refund please contact the Helping Hearts email address on the paypal receipt.
UDPATE 10/11 11:08AM:
In regard to the Euthanasia Issue:
CHW has collected all necessary funds.
This morning a representative of the farm where 657 and 658 came from contacted us.
They have supplied the funds to humanely euthanize these two horses. They agree with the choices that have been made for the horses. She apologized profusely for this mess.
They had trusted someone who assured them that he would be bringing them to a “rehoming sale run by a rich lady, and if the horses didn’t find wonderful new homes the the rehoming sale, the rich lady would take them into her gorgeous farm to live out their lives”. They paid this person to bring these horses in; they personally saw NONE of the funds generated by their sale to Camelot. They were scammed.
She did not contact us sooner because by the time they heard about it, they thought that the horses were gone/shipped on Saturday. She was relieved to hear that the horses had not shipped and that they had the ability to ensure a peaceful passing.
These horses will be put to rest today. The time will NOT be posted, as no-one wants a circus for their final moments. A representative of CHW will be present, proof of the humane veterinary euthanasia will be provided.
This has been an extremely difficult situation, and while we understand the emotional issue this is, we had hoped and continue to hope that people would be able to disagree but still treat each other with respect. Thank you to those of you who have.
In regard to the $660 overage of funds collected, What we suggest is that the overage be applied to pulling a horse so that it can go to CHW registered rescue that has the ability to intake -- If not this week, then in a following week. Helping Hearts is removing themselves from the pool of possible rescues, to avoid accusations of impropriety. If any donors would like a refund out of the $660, please email Helping Hearts (use the paypal receipt) and advise prior to noon today. After that, we will be transferring the funds out of Paypal to take care of the arrangements
More links to read if you wish.
http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/6213/NY/US/
http://www.princetoninfo.com/index.php?option=com_us1more&Itemid=6&key=12-14-2005_f_03
http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2011/08/enforcement_of_state_regulatio.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110510193955AAHNfUn
Quote Originally Posted by lucky_pine View Post
ReplyDeleteEdit: Why does Frank leave such a bad taste in so many peoples mouths? This isn't pointing towards anyone, but what this guy is a BLESSING for these horses. If it weren't for Frank, they'd have a one way trip to the slaughterhouse. He is giving them a second chance, yet some people just don't see it that way.
Of COURSE he is going to make money off it, it's a business, not a rescue.
Yes he may be giving them a second chance, but he still taking peoples kindness for weakness on getting $300-$400+ profit on a $10 horse. If people refused to pay him the prices he ask for this horses, he wouldn't have them so high. I personally hate the man because I have met him on several occasions, he makes fun of the people who buy horses from him at his auction! He tells people all of the time that he can get triple the money on a worthless horse because people can't see a horse suffer. HE DOESN'T FLIPPING CARE ABOUT ANY OF THOSE HORSES THERE!!!! I don't see why people don't see this! All his see are $$$$$$$ signs on everyone of those horses heads. He spends I'd say max $1300.00 every Monday and turns around with about 10,000.00 by the next Saturday. Do the math next time he list horses. Say each other is $100(extremely high price for him~in reality he doesn't pay this) at New Holland then just add each ones prices together to get what he is going to make off of them by Saturday.
If I want a horse who is going to have strangles, be lame, untrained, and have a boat load of other issues.... I'll go to New Holland myself on a Monday and spend $50 on a horse who is going to have those issues. Frank will never ever get a $0.1 from me! I hate th
I hate that man that man beyond words. Maybe more people need to hear what he says at New Holland. Go and meet him, talk to him, play dumb, pretend you are on his side and are his friend. Your mouth will hit the floor, I promise you!
ReplyDeletePlease remove my photo immediately from your blog- it is being used without my permission and you have removed the watermark. Thank you. Sarah Andrew
ReplyDeleteRemoved, I was not aware it was your photo.
ReplyDeletethis should make people so irate they spit blood from their eyes.. i havent followed chw or camelot for over a yr. The lies, the money the deception it goes on forever. They are all 3 connected at the hip. why cant the 23,000 people who are there shedding tears and fighting for these horses see the truth. This is a business, there is NO truck coming, and i would be willing to bet Lisa p gets a kick back from her friend monica,& frank. GO THRU CRAIGSLIT. go thru a REPUTABLE rescue to save a life. stop lining the pockets of the frank carpers, the brian moores, and ALL the other horse traders out there. PLEASE stop drinking the KOOLAID get your brain moving - do research ask ? and then help a horse but not this way...
ReplyDeleteEXACTLY Anonymous!!! Thank you for your post. I wish more people would open their eyes and read what is in front of them. Take off the blinders and see just what is going on around you.
ReplyDeleteI MUST point out that horses run through New Holland every week are at a VERY high risk of going to the slaughter house. The statistics are between 60 and 90 % of horses ran through New Holland a week are sold for slaughter. Ok, so Frank buys these horses from New Holland..the ones he buys ARE safe for that week from going to the slaughter house. If he doesn't sell them through his auction and he takes them back to New Holland, he may not see a profit...and once again these horses will be at a very high risk of being bought by the kill buyers. New Holland IS a kill auction. The horses MOST at risk are the unbroke and untrained horses that are lead through or ran through. Maybe you don't like Frank...and maybe you think what he does is wrong...but I take a stand and say that the horses bought by Frank ARE the lucky ones. This SHOULD be about the horses, and saving lives, not about whether Frank makes money or how much money he makes. Who cares. Are we putting a price on these horses lives? And how is buying a horse that most likely would have been bought by a kill buyer at New Holland any worse than adopting from a rescue that has done that exact same thing? The rescue is put on a pedestal, while the individual is seen as some stupid bleeding heart ignoramus. I don't care that the truck doesn't come to Camelot- the truckS come to New Holland every week..and if Frank goes out of business more horses WILL go to slaughter and that is what I will NOT support.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLearn English and get your facts straight before posting your "ideas" for the world to read.
ReplyDeleteSorry to hear that Dom! I too wish more people would think before "saving" a life, yet putting the rest of the herd at risk of getting sick. You aren't the first person I have heard that who was threatened or "thrown out" aka chased/followed out by him.
ReplyDeleteMaybe if we supported more rescues who actually pull straight from New Holland, the prices on the horses there would go up and the kill buyers wouldn't be so inclined to go every week. It all comes down to a supply and demand kind of situation. Middle men aren't always good. I've been to New Holland a bunch, I have been to Camelot a good 7-10 times. It is amazing to see so many people with blinders on who work with Camelot. Keep on lining that mans pockets with your hard earned money, he loves it!!! He brags about how he doesn't have to do anything to get his paycheck every week and he thinks we are all fools. He loves to pull those heart stings and knows just how to pull them. I'll continue to support and help those rescues out who pull straight from New Holland. Frank is not a rescuer. Just saying.
ReplyDeleteI think it's fine if Frank wants to buy a bunch of horses, run them thru his auction and then let people buy them.
ReplyDeleteBut I can't stand the lies or how the program is run.
-1-He only makes $50. He makes alot more than $50 which is okay but stop lying and saying that's all you make. He's in the business to make money but stop the lying.
-2-He maintains a feedlot and ships to slaughter. Frank does not ship to slaughter and has not shipped for many years.
-3- these horses are being networked all over the internet, people donate money to the "approved" rescues, people call in and give credit card and bail direct and there is no accountability or protection for the horse. There is no procedure in place to protect the horse from being dumped at auction again and many DO get dumped again.
Frank stopped shipping when he got the $11,000 cruelty fine from the highly publicized "popsicle case". it was the highest $$ cruelty fine in history. He transported horses and pigs on same trailer, pigs above the horses in below -0- weather. Pigs urinated and defecated on the horses causing them to freeze like popsicles.
http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/6213/NY/US/
He also was buying illegally at New Holland under a defunct Beltex number. See, Frank is smart, when buying under Beltex he could still lie and pretend horses were in the slaughter pipeline. When in the slaughter pipeline, coggins and health certs were not required to enter state of NJ. Now that he is not a slaughter buyer, he is required to get coggins and health certs. I sure hope the Dept of Ag in NJ is aware of this and he is getting the required paperwork or he will be shut down and fined thousands.
I am not against horses getting out of kill pens (like AC4H broker program) or off the auction circuit like Camelot Horse Weekly. saving from auction is great but you can only save a few lives that way. Rescues everywhere buy direct at auction, rehab, and rehome but it takes months, sometimes years. Angel Acres, Another Chance Equine Rescue are just a few that save maybe 4 or 5 a year and that's it. A well run kill broker program can save hundreds of horses but it has to be done right with the horse's being protected and the people homing them being educated about the perils of getting a horse direct from kill pen or auction.
I read that article and no where did it say anything about pigs being in the trailer. Said he was fined for not having separations, failure to maintain adequate temperature, having no non-skid (which ended up being dismissed) and trailering horses in a double decker trailer. And finally, that was back in 1994. A long time ago. No other problems since then have been reported that I could find. While, yes the charges were severe, it was not as you stated. If you want to defend/admonish someone, have your facts straight otherwise you look like an idiot.
DeleteThis says "Two" horses. There were Three that would be euthanized when all this first started, what happened to the third horse?
ReplyDeleteGood question! I didn't catch that part. Hmmm I too wonder.
ReplyDeleteThanks for opening my eyes...... I'm sad for all this. I'm not able financially to do much, I CAN network, and I thought I found a genuine way to help truly needy horses, instead I've been helping a horse trader get rich and I spend hours and hours every week, stressing and worrying, crying and sweating over these horses who are not in any danger at all....... Frankly, I'm sad and more than a little pissed.
ReplyDeleteGinny
Same here Ginny! I used to do the same thing, before a few opened up my eyes. I didn't believe them at first then I took the time to actually drive up there one evening and watched it all unfold right in front of me. I wasn't convinced what I had been told was still correct, so I went back the next week and saw it again. That is when I started talking to people and asking questions. The more you go the more you find out. The more you find out, the more it angers you. I am still extremely angry that all of these hard working people are working for Frank yet aren't getting paid to do so. Peoples emotions are being played every week and in the end, he is winning. It sucks! It really really does. I hope these last few days have opened up a bunch of peoples eyes and they stand up and say "NO MORE!". I got my current guy for free, he was New Holland bound. His previous owners cared more about his well being then money. In the end all three of us (me, Topper, and previous owner) lucked out and won. It is an amazing feeling when you can say you actually saved a horse or actually save one from an actual kill pen, and not just a middle mans fake "kill pen auction".
ReplyDeleteThat article about the "Popsicle Horses" was HORRIBLE!! Double stacked hauling??? Geez, that is always a HUGE NO NO. There was a wreck here outside Cincinnati a few years ago with a double stacked trailer hauling horses and it was just tragic. I couldn't read about it without crying. Thankfully, I don't believe the horses that survived went to slaughter, I believe they were all confiscated and rescues took them in, but my memory is not super clear on that, I know some if not all WERE rescued, just not sure it was all..... So he is the worst of the worst if he did that, and obviously he did or he wouldn't have been fined. I truly am a sucker. Animals and kids and I'm a sucker, and the old. ALL who are defenseless basically. Guess that's why I'm now going into law!! I'm still just so upset over this whole ordeal.... and Frank is just gonna walk away as if nothing happened....
ReplyDeleteGinny
Well, I totally believe in Karma, and I sure wouldn't want to be Frank when the Karma bus comes around. It may not be this week, it may not be this year, but it WILL find him eventually.
ReplyDeleteI totally understand about saving a life! Poor Crystal was originally bought at auction and was headed back had I not gotten her. She sure didn't deserve it, she's an awesome horse. I often wonder what would have happened had I not been there at just that time to make the post on CL.
It really pisses me off that he KNOWS he's playing people. How do you go watch him without telling him off or slapping the shit out of him?? LOL!! I don't know if I could actually see him do that stuff and hold my tongue...... I've spoke up more than once when i see abuses happening in front of me, and while it may not be physical abuse, what he does to the people he suckers in IS EMOTIONAL abuse, and he's an ass, obviously...
I bailed a horse from Camelot and it is turning out to be a fantastic horse (with professional training that I definitely didn't expect to have to do since the statement about this horse said that it was "kid safe"). I am so glad that I was able to get this horse because I know there is loads of potential there, but I am not sure of how truthful things are at Camelot since in my one encounter with them the truth was missed by a long shot. I will never bail another horse from Camelot again because the risk is way too high for me (since the truth is not the real truth), but I will definitely support rescues and get horses from them instead.
ReplyDeleteI hate horse slaughter so much, and he sure knows how to sucker people like me into the whole thing..... The more I think about it, the more pissed off I get. It's one thing to be taken advantage of, it's another for someone to laugh at those that they are taking for a ride. I have literally cried some weekends, so stressed and worried that these horses were not going to be placed. And I have three health issues that are made so much worse by stress, but still I would sit and post and post and repost, and this asshole KNOWS what he's doing and laughs at us.... Truly, he needs to go away. I hate horse traders and he is worse than a horse trader..... I found several things just by googling his name, where he had been warned for selling horses for slaughter that were contaminated with harmful drugs (DUH, most of the horses he gets were riding horses or off the track TB's). Is this why he is no longer able to ship to slaughter?? Bet that has put a real crimp in his style..... BUT I bet he makes more money duping innocent caring people into "rescuing" one his horses that has god knows what wrong with it.....
ReplyDeleteGinny
And I beg anyone who is reading this to SUPPORT your local legit horse rescues who pull first hand from New Holland or other big known kill pen auctions! They are the ones who deserve the pat on the back along with all the help they can get! Leave out the middle man!
ReplyDeleteJava, get my fricking post off this blog NOW! You DO NOT go onto a horse forum and STEAL peoples posts to bash on another blog. Get a stinking life! You know EXACTLY which poster I am because I just called you out on the forum!
ReplyDeleteActually your name is posted above. I'm not bashing you by any means.
ReplyDeleteWhy did you copy her post from another site to respond to here? Are you afraid to address her on the board? What a coward.
ReplyDeleteActually I did respond to it there. Post #22.
ReplyDeleteRight - You responded to her there - then posted here where she can't defend herself. Cool. That's so sweet of you. Good thing I got you caught and have passed the word about you stealing info from others and posting it on your site. Pictures. Posts. Nice.
ReplyDeleteReally, I do not care. I wasn't bashing her, at all. If she feels the need to defend herself, then she knows of two places she can find me at. Here and on the forums. It's no secret. If it were, do you think I would link back to here? I doubt it. Carry on.
ReplyDeleteHow about you actually comply with my request, and remove it like I asked? A moderator on the forum has been notified, as this is more than likely against forum rules. Way to be a better person.
ReplyDeleteSounds like someone's salty about CHW being called out for their shady dealings. B-O-O H-O-O.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who has moderated numerous forums...there is absolutely nothing you can do about someone c&p'ing something from one forum to another. You can go cry now.
ReplyDeleteLucky_pine: I doubt it is against forum rules, I have read them and I see no where, where it states it. A lot of material is copied and pasted around the net, daily. It happens. I see no reason why I should "take it down". It is not hurting you at all. Yes you wrote it and I quoted it here. Now really.... you wrote it in an open public forum, what is the big problem of me having it posted here quoting you? I'm not seeing the problem.
ReplyDeleteWhile googling Franks name, I found this interesting link to another message board:
ReplyDeletehttp://icers.yuku.com/topic/1350/10-Horses-Go-to-Slaughter-from-Camelot?page=1#.TpT7xrJ2O3o
This was from earlier this year and seemed very much like what's going on NOW..... Interesting.....
That was a fake thing. Well I mean it was real BUT those horses never went to slaughter. They never were going to get sent there. Frank was having trouble selling the last 10 horses, so what does he do? He calls one of his "kill buyer buddies" to come and attend his auction. He told everyone that there was a "kill buyer" there that evening. So what do all the horse loving people do? They freak out and buy those 10 horses up to "save" them. Those 10 horses were never in any danger of going to slaughter. His kill buyer buddy was never going to really pay Frank for them. It was all a hoax's to get money in his pocket and get rid of those 10 horses.
ReplyDeleteJava- BRUCE ROTZ was at Camelot and purchased a load of 10 horses that night...yes he was at Camelot and he purchased them in the sale ring, paid for them, and loaded them onto his stock trailer to take back to his barn that night. I SAW WITH MY OWN EYES! So get your facts straight and if you DO NOT attend the sale every week like I do and actually see then your "he said" "she said" "I heard" is a bunch of false information!
ReplyDeleteAlso its funny how this page shows pictures from NEW HOLLAND Sales Stable not Camelot!
ReplyDeleteAlso Frank can ship to slaughter if he really wanted too, though the only options are Canada and Mexico (need to be dropped into holding pens in Texas). In fact prior to the CHW stepping in each week these horses did ship! Where do you think the #10 horses went??!! He gathered a load and had a truck come down from Canada each week to haul them to a plant in Canada. How do I know?? Because I saw with my own eyes several times pre-November 2009. This was the reality at Camelot before CHW began their network.
ReplyDeleteYup they are from New Holland. I had pictures up from Camelot but Sara Andrews asked them to be removed since they were her photos. Bruce is Franks "BFF", those horses weren't going anywhere. It was all a con to freak people out and to get Frank more money. Bruce never bought those horses. Frank GAVE Bruce that money to "bid" with and to "win" the lot. Guess what? IT WORKED! I don't need to go to Camelot every week. Been there done that. Saw what really is going on in that place and how so many people are just blind with what is really going on and how Frank uses them to make a buck. I don't support scumbag middleman BUT I do support real legit rescues who do go to New Holland every week and pull horses directly from there. Those people don't turn around and jack the prices up on the horses two days after. Those people take the time and money to rehab those horses and find them good legit homes. THOSE people get my sincere kudos.
ReplyDeleteFrank was having trouble selling the last 10 horses ---> JAVA I was there too that night and these horse were purchased during the sale that night...they were not originally #10 horses...they left with Bruce that night! GO TO A SALE ON A WEDNESDAY NIGHT AND THEN MAKE A STATEMENT!!! ALL YOUR INFO IS NOT FACTUAL!!!
ReplyDeleteI have been there, many times. I too have seen it all with my own eyes. If you have read my post you would have known that.
ReplyDeleteJava- If you choose to pull horses from NH directly that is fine and one less horse from there going to kill. But don't bash Camelot auction because they bring horses in from NH and then resell them...the whole point of a business is TO MAKE A PROFIT! Camelot Sales Stable is a business so you can't buy a horse and sell it for what you paid for or you are not making any money. Ever consider the operating expenses on any sale barn? Feed, hay (mangers at Camelot are always full of alfalfa an even more expensive hay!), shavings for stalls and pens, employee salary, water, electricity, permits/licenses, maintenance, property tax etc etc etc? Camelot is lucky to break even on a good week! The economy is bad and people are not buying horses like they used to so if the average horse at Camelot is $300-$600 that is a bargain in my opinion to the buyer but not much room for the seller ie Frank. The auction is not a "fun" nite once a week to make a buck...this is his and his family's FULL TIME JOB! 24/7 365 days a year...you try running a sale barn and trust me when you rely on the income from it to support your family and pay your bills you will change your tune too!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous I like your tune...if Frank is making so much money like some say go there on a Wednesday night and point out to me his mega mansion, fleet of Mercedes or Corvettes, his Rolex watch, Gucci shoes etc...hes a simple man of the old horse trading school...you had to be one step ahead to make a buck and that is how he has always operated to stay afloat in a changing economy...and personally if he were so wealthy he would have retired a long time ago as who would honestly want to deal with all the nonsense of late.
ReplyDeleteYes $300-$600 may be a bargain ON A GOOD SOUND, HEALTHY, BROKE HORSE WITH WITH NO ISSUES. Frank buys horses for $10 a piece. They need a lot of groceries, medical attention, along with most have soundness issues and have mental problems. I don't care what he pays to run the place, that isn't the point, nor is whatever it takes to provide for his family. The bottom line here is Frank is a scam artist and a scumbag who lies and cheats his way in to manipulating good, hard working, honest people into thinking what he is doing, is a good thing... when in reality it is not and all he is doing to using those people to make money to "save the poor horses". Sadly people are to blind to see it all that way, including you as I see. I'll just agree to disagree with you now.
ReplyDeleteUnless you are buying a "skinner" or very lame or blind horse he is not getting them for $10/piece. I go to NH on most Mondays so again you have no idea about pricing at NH. Yes he may take some for under $50 but not all his horses are that cheap! Again if CHW or any other form of networking for these horses went away then he would be stuck with many #10 horses and no unfortunately he can't hold onto them and stockpile them so they would have to go for slaughter! Even before CHW I used to buy horses out of his feedlot and there were times he would refuse to sell me a horse and I appreciate his honesty with every single horse I have ever bought from him. However now that theres any actual group networking for these horses it becomes a scam? As a sale barn even every single horse that sells now on a #10 ticket must be documented, sales tax charged etc. It still falls under the daily business routine so should there ever be an audit every horse sold out of that barn is documented. There's no scam at all. Unfortunately when the term "horse slaughter" comes into play emotions run high and pro vs anti are pitted against another. And so I choose to disagree with you Java but I can see you have a passion for helping horses so why not take that drive and figure out how you can help horses if Camelot is not your crusade. I wish you all the best with your rescue endeavors.
ReplyDeleteI help network camelot horses and I don't care whether Frank has two heads and insults me in any possible manner. I AM helping horses. Those horses at NH often are sent to slaughter. Every horse he buys and sells at a profit (which is the American way- buy low, sell high) is given a chance to get a new life. He has expenses and makes a profit, just like every other business. Everything you buy, from food to clothing to appliances- is because someone bought it low and sold it higher. A horse is worth $400 if and only if someone is willing to spend $400 on it, no matter whether he paid 10 or 500 for it. I have known from the beginning that he is making a profit. I doubt very much whether he is making the kind of money you claim he is.
ReplyDeleteWhen people come on the site and say they have little or no horse experience, we encourage them to adopt from one of the rescues. We do NOT encourage novices to buy a horse, sight unseen, that may have problems. For everyone else, there is a rule. a horse that is sold for less than $400 is sold "AS IS." Over $400 and you can return it. Just like buying a car as is, you take your risk. It's like any other auction. Everyone goes thinking they will get that one thing that is worth far more than they paid for it. In some cases, that has been true. In others, the horse was at the auction for a reason, and it might have undetected medical needs. Buying anything at an auction is a risk.
As far as the threat that the horses will go to slaughter, that is very real. Even if Frank cannot ship directly, he certainly can sell to meat buyers who will ship. If he has 10 horses left over one week, then another 8 the next, what is he going to do with them? Obviously he has to consider dumping them on the meat market. So the way I look at it, he buys horses that are at risk, using his best judgment to buy horses whose price he can jack up , (the essence of capitalism) horses, that might have ended up in Canada, and puts them into a different pipeline. He has never claimed to be a rescue and frankly, as others have said, his attitude determines his own karma. He is not taking advantage of me. I am trying to help horses find homes. I don't care whether the person supplying the vehicle is a jerk or not,
Maybe you should check out the horses that are available as of this morning. There are some beautiful animals there. Which ones would you send off to Canada? Which would you choose? The mini's? The gaited horses? The drafts? There is only one skinny horse in the bunch. I look at the list and I see beautiful animals getting a second chance at finding a home in a market that is stacked against them.
ReplyDeleteSadly Dorthy horse slaughter is a necessary evil. We're damned if we send them there, we're damned if we don't. It is a two faced coin, some win, some don't. This doesn't go just for horses, it goes for the thousands of dogs and cats that are sent to over populated shelters too. What would you like to see happen? We try to save them all by making it completely illegal for animals to be sent off to slaughter/putdown (Mexico and Canada included) and there literally hundreds of animals dying all around us because people just up and leave them to starve and die? Or would it be better that we still ship them to Mexico and Canada where sadly they will be destroyed and there parts will be of some kind of use. When we made it illegal to slaughter horses in the US, we REALLY screwed it up for the horses big time. Now it means, longer travel for them to arrive to their destinations, then they are to be withheld near the boarders till they are clear to be brought in to Mexico or Canada. I'm not sure if you have been to any third world country or a country where animals aren't "pets" like they are here, let me tell you it sucks seeing so many homeless, sick, starving, and dying animals walk around the streets. They would have been better off with their life sadly ended. Maybe the horses at Camelot are lucky, but I'm still not going to change my mind, or think Frank is anything good other then the bit of dog shit on the button of the shoe. I'll keep promoting those rescues who pull straight from NH, those are the people who deserve the help, money, and credit. We can't save them all and that is the bottom line.
ReplyDeleteHorse slaughter is NOT a necessary evil. I was very supportive of everything you were saying about CHW, until you began the propaganda and lies that we hear daily from the pro slaughter side. Now, that actually makes everything you have said on here appear to be nothing more than made up lies. There are the SAME number of horses slaughtered now as when the slaughterhouses were opened in the US, has it changed anything? No. Have the breeders (the cause of all of this in the first place) changed their irresponsible behavior? No, have people stopped mistreating their animals? No. Same crap, different year. It is ILLEGAL to starve your animals, period. Illegal. So, you want to make it easier to be irresponsible and greedy? You want to put horse slaughter in someones back yard when over 70% of Americans are sickened by it. You would rather have innocent, young, healthy animals slaughtered because the AQHA wants those dollars or do things the right way, bring attention to the irresponsible breeders, push for stronger laws to protect the horses and stand by those politicians who will do the right thing by the ANIMALS for once, not the special interest groups. Horse slaughter is a non existant industry, driven only by greed and a lack of morality regarding these animals who give their lives and more for their owners. Our horse meat is laced with drugs that have been proven toxic to humans, cause cancer and such and more than likely will not be allowed to be used in Europe shortly anyway. What then for those of you who would rather throw away an animal than actually take responsibility for your actions? I am not sure if Gentle Giants Draft Horse Rescue is 'Java' or not but if that is the case, I will make sure that those on my lists understand that you are pro slaughter. If you don't do things the right way and condone the behavior that leads to slaughter in the first place and support it because you belong to certain groups or profit from it, you are not really a horse or animal lover. I removed myself from CHW last week and will no longer support their rescue efforts, however, I will also never support rescues that are pro slaughter and think that the killing of innocent animals is fine to cover for a lack of responsibility. Just like various cities are doing, cracking down on puppy mills, creating mandatory spay/neuter laws, etc. to fix the overpopulation problem with dogs and cats, the same has to be done with horses. It is much harder to enforce with dogs and cats because of their size and that many of the horses that are sent to slaughter are bred in an industry that makes some of these animals very watched, very popular, if they want to profit from them and use the media to make more money, than also be prepared for people to be more outraged knowing that some of those who don't reach the top are being thrown away by these greedy killers. Whether you hang the horse and let it bleed out on your own or are just too lazy or too far up AQHA's behind to do the proper research on the subject, you are still a killer if you support horse slaughter. Really, when you think about it, what is the difference between what Frank does and anyone who is pro slaughter? Both exist because of a sick industry, both lie to continue the behavior that they make their livings from, Both have to continue using fear tactics and propaganda instead of relying on the actual facts about the industry. Neither care about the animals or they would actively be trying to stop it in the first place, KNOWING that is the only way to make sure that the mistreating, abusive, irresponsible behavior to the horses is stopped, is to end the easy out that the breeders and ranchers need to get rid of their less than perfect animals. Frank is a piece of manipulating, greedy trash as is anyone who condones slaughter because they are brainwashed and too lazy to actually read and research instead of just copying and pasting what AQHA wants them to.
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost, NO I AM NOT of anyone who works for, helps out, or has had any kind of affiliation with Gentle Giants Draft Horse Rescue. Are they pro slaughter? I highly doubt it.
ReplyDeleteI'm incredibly tired of, and insulted by, people assuming that anyone who buys a horse at Camelot doesn't understand exactly who Frank is and how his business works. You, in truth, are the ignorant ones, if you can't accept that Camelot is unique among auctions as the horses are photographed and networked. *Yes,* I know that doing so benefits Frank. *Yes,* I know that the horses that don't sell there may not go directly to a kill-buyer, but they would go on to other, lower-line auctions - why can *you* not understand that they are, in fact, one small step from a kill buyer?
ReplyDeleteFor the record: my Camelot mule's severe disability was fully disclosed and was as described. His disposition was also exactly as described: flawless, and remained so throughout multiple strangers examining and working on him, both pre- and post-surgery. Whatever factors, financial and/or otherwise, motivated Frank to buy my mule from his previous owner (NOT a NH buy), I don't know and don't care. My mule got a chance at a life that no other auction owner would have given him.
And by the way, I'm one of those 'beyond-beginner' owners you all like to snipe at; however, I have horse-owning friends and used them, and the Internet, to research vets and ensure my mule got the best care in all regards. And yes, I ensured he was in strict quarantine boarding for 30 days, and no, he had no diseases at all.
Conditions at Camelot - clean, fresh quality hay, ample water, fans that work - are to be commended.
Whatever you think of Camelot is your right. Simply please stop writing as though those who choose to network and support the *horses* there are your moral or intellectual inferiors.
Why have all these people come over here to trash people when many of us got kicked off CHW??? Some horrible things have been said on CHW and those of us being talked about are not allowed to defend ourselves. If people don't believe the shit they read from court and police reports, then they're hopeless. I will NOT support anyone who abuses animals, nor will I support any group in favor of that person. The end does not justify the means. He'd still be hauling directly to slaughter if hadn't lost his license. He's only selling them this way because he can't do it any other way. He needs to get an "honest" job. I hate and despise horse traders, always have, always will. You can't trust a word that comes out of their mouths, they rarely know a good horse from a bad horse because they never hang on to one long enough to know. They are a scurge to the horse world, and human world alike. Java, why do you put up with these people coming here after they've bashed and trashed and banned so many of us on CHW. They need to go back where they came from......
ReplyDeleteGinny
Ginny,
ReplyDeleteThey are only coming here for one thing and one thing only and that is to try and shut me and the others who know about this, up. They can come here and yell and try to "prove" this is all lies and wrong, but the fact is, exactly what you have said above...
"He'd still be hauling directly to slaughter if hadn't lost his license. He's only selling them this way because he can't do it any other way."
I don't break the law and I don't support those who do. Specially when it comes to a guy like Frank and other horse brokers. I hate them and that isn't a secret. This has been going on for years now, it will only get worse and I know more people will sit back and go "HUH, well that doesn't add up... What is really going on here?" and they will figure it out for themselves. There is enough proof out there about this guy and what he runs and how he does it. Those who wish to help him by "saving" his horses, please be my guest. Keep supporting a known criminal and his family who I can only believe are no better then him. Actions speak louder then words. I will continue warning people about him and his operations. Feel free to trash me all you want, that is fine.
I agree Java, I refuse to support ANYONE who breaks the law, especially when it relates to animal abuse and ESPECIALLY when it's horses. That Popsicle horse story sickened me. ANYONE who can read that and STILL support this guy is a moron. I mean it. If you cannot read that and find it disgusting and that man reprehensible I don't know what would. If DO NOT SEE what he is after that, then you're as bad as he is. That was hideous. Worse than hideous. If they can treat those horses like that, how does he treat the ones in his barn?? I'm sure not well. If he can shoot a horse in the head, THREE HORSES IN THE HEAD, then that also has to tell you something....... He's trash and he's a criminal and he shouldn't even be allowed to own horses, let alone sucker people into buying them from him. What kind of laws do they have in NJ?? If they allow someone like him to continue doing business after the things he's done, it's not a place I'd ever want to be.....
ReplyDeleteTo the above anonymous comment:
ReplyDelete...how does he treat the ones in his barn?? I'm sure not well. <<<<< OK REALLY WHOEVER WROTE THAT STOP SPREADING LIES AND RUMORS!!!
For anyone who has ever been to Camelot...which I'm sure half the people posting here have NEVER set foot on the property...it is by far the cleanest sale barn...fresh hay (and alfalfa nonetheless!), grain buckets hung (yes these horses get grained!), fresh clean water troughs, clean pens with fresh shavings...so the Camelot horses definitely get better treatment than many boarding farms I have been too...or even some "rescue" farms.
AGAIN if you have never set foot on the property then don't make a ridiculous statement.
And by the way, trucking violations do not make you a criminal...have you ever been pulled over for a speeding ticket? Does that make you a criminal? That incident is going on 20 years old and was settled out of court...the violations only pertain to the truck, all counts of animal cruelty/neglect etc were dropped so again GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!!! Had every count been upheld then the fines POTENTIALLY could have totaled $11,000 but if you look into the public record and read the news that followed that press release on the Equine Protection Network that everyone refers to then you will read that the final violations only referred to the truck.
AGAIN I AM SO TIRED OF PEOPLE WHO POST FALSE INFORMATION!!!
I bought(Rescued ) A horse from Frank ( CHW ) and she was just as the post said and looked. She need groceries and a lot of love. Let me tell you she is the best horse I have ever owned. Whoever had her before trained her well and Frank picked out a good one and so did I from a picture and a few words. I have never bought a horse sight unseen and I know the risks but I took my chances and I won. I know Frank is making money and I do not care, he deserves it for the way he takes care of the horses and gives them a second chance. Beth
ReplyDeleteI heard that horse auction is one issue in horsemanship. Is it true that the reason behind this horse auction is just for slaughter?
ReplyDeleteIt seems you either love Frank or hate him. I am in the middle. I agree, profit is the American way and on CHW, I have NEVER seen where they post the horses are slaughter bound. I have also never seen where they say "kid safe". Very rarely do they put beginner or kid safe, but intermediate level or advanced. So he purchases horses from New Holland, which everyone agrees is a kill sale, takes them to Camelot and sells them for a profit. I have also seen where he has given medical attention, farrier and feeds very well. So he obviously cares about the horses or he wouldn't be spending that much on them. Even if his caring, is to make sure he gets a higher profit, taking care of an animal is taking care of one. I follow CHW and have not seen or heard of anything that would make me think they are in on anything. I see a transparent (or so far as I can tell) system, that is regulated and strict in its rules. So, I know Frank is making a profit...so do I. Are you going to admonish me because I use a 10% off coupon at Lowe's to make a little extra money on the supplies I purchase for my clients? Are you going to admonish me for making a $2 a ft profit? No, why, because by the time we pay bills, we barely break even. We have no extra money and from what I see, Frank pays a lot out, so he needs to make money. The horse market is fickle at best. Why don't we attack those that need to be attacked, like the breeders and registration associations that encourage heavy breeding.
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